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  1. #11
    Senior Member
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    Ooh...chemistry & physics how cool is that . Remember people used to think the world was flat, but after a long period of time, it was proven otherwise. Keep in mind things change just as time, and your reference to the elders is nice. However, if that is your arguement, how do you explain the use of pods (Illy)? Well we can save that for another day. As a roaster I'm always experimenting and improving where I can. So I don't necessarily buy the arguement about longer shots. That's okay if you believe in what was taught to you back then. But like good ol Chris Columbus I will continue to explore.
    "A Word of Difference"TM

  2. #12
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    Oct 2004
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    Portland, OR
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    CG

    good luck on your exploration ...

    Dr. Ernesto Illy agrees that 25-30 seconds is the proper time for extracting espresso. I guess I believe him as well as my own taste preference.

    anyway, I don't want to argue about this ... besides I would LOVE for my competition to be serving 16 second extractions ... oh wait, most of them already are.



    bottom line is that the US standard is different from the International ... if you are serving mainly 20oz flavored lattes and mochas no one will be able to taste the coffee anyway. call me a purist
    Bellissimo Coffee InfoGroup
    American Barista & Coffee School
    Expert Coffee Business Consulting, On-site or Espresso Lab Professional Barista Training!
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  3. #13
    Senior Member
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    Oct 2004
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    Portland, OR
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    hmm ... chris columbus was italian right ... i hear they are good explorers
    Bellissimo Coffee InfoGroup
    American Barista & Coffee School
    Expert Coffee Business Consulting, On-site or Espresso Lab Professional Barista Training!
    800.655.3955

  4. #14
    Senior Member
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    Portland, OR
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    hmm ... chris columbus was italian right ... i hear they are good explorers
    Bellissimo Coffee InfoGroup
    American Barista & Coffee School
    Expert Coffee Business Consulting, On-site or Espresso Lab Professional Barista Training!
    800.655.3955

  5. #15
    Senior Member
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    Oct 2003
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    Seattle,Washington USA
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    Hey BT:

    I figured you'd catch my reference on Chris And with respect to Dr. Illy, he has done a lot for the industry in the beginning, however, the industry is continuing to evolve. And things change, besides there's nothing wrong with pulling shots between 25-30 seconds when in a cafe or coffee shop. Just as there is nothing wrong with pulling them at 22-25. However, as I mentioned in past posts that 16 seconds is in my opinion the absolute minimum in a drive thru enviroment. That is my point when it comes to blending and roasting for my markets. As for winning contests and awards, that doesn't interest me much. Don't get me wrong, it's great to get praise, but only when it comes from customers and folks doing independent studies, not entering paid or sponsored contests.
    "A Word of Difference"TM

  6. #16
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    Feb 2004
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    Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia/Bukit Sentul, West Java
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    Recently I was at the Coffee/Tea World Cup Singapore and heard quite a lot of debate on the subject of Espresso. It does indeed seem that there is a polarization between the Italians and the Americans regarding exactly what is espresso. The Italians I talked to were adamant that there was only one true way to make espresso....ie 7 grams of coffee- extraction time 24-28 seconds. Their opinion (and this was not just a singular opinion) was that if these parameters were not adhered to then the drink extracted could simply not be called espresso! Funnily the barista championship at the World Cup had a pretty well known Barista competing. He told the audience that basically the more ground coffee you got into the portafilter the better....ie: toss the 7gm rule out the window. The debate got so intense that many of the Europeans were commenting that "espresso" should be like "champagne"...ie: as it is a drink originating in Italy only the origin should be allowed to call an espresso an espresso! It was all very interesting and a lot of the debate was (I think) the old school vs those from the Americas. Being a neutral in this area I had the opportunity to hearboth sides but reserve my judgement on whether I agree with the trditionalists or the revisionists
    Merdeka Coffee (Indonesian Coffee Roasters and relationship coffee specialists) - Antipodean (Coffee - Cafe - Culture)

  7. #17
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    Boca Raton
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    Alun...how was the show overall? Did you run into our buddy from monster? I remember him saying he would be there and that he wanted to hook up with you to show his machine off...so what's the deal? Inquiring minds want to know
    "Wine is for aging, not coffee."
    Ken Hutchinson, Starsky and Hutch

  8. #18
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    JaVa Touring Center, Spa & Racquet Club
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    I get a kick out of the champagne thing. That was secured by the French in the Treaty of Versailles. What did securing the name "champagne" to sparkling wines made from grapes grown in the Champage region of France have to do with securing the peace after the first World War? Absolutely nothing. But they got it in the treaty. Sounds like our Congressional lobbyists have a role model in the French...

    I do not believe we are at any risk of the Italians securing legal rights to "espresso" during any multi-national treaty won by a victorious and vindictive Italian army.

    I don't remember the details of the jokes I heard in elementary school, but I remember the Italian military was the butt of them. Shortest books in history. Screen doors on submarines. I guess they are coming back.

    Anyway, without a military victory, whatever chatter there is about a national claim to "espresso" sounds about as pathetic as... I'm at a loss for words. I can't think of anything that pathetic.

    Historical note - the French did not invent or name French Fries.
    Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water. ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674

  9. #19
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    Hey Topher! The show was excellent, well worth the visit. I saw the stand with the air roaster machine....but I regret to say that I did not have a chance to meet George . I will be back over in Singapore in the not too distant future and hope to catch up with him then.

    Being originally from the antipodes we are kind of the new, new world! So its funny to see the rivalry between Europe and the US. Hehehe...maybe its similar to us and China with "Kiwifruit" (AKA Chinese gooseberry) .

    Seriously though it was good to see such a big turnout for the exhibition....the future looks bright for specialty coffee in Asia.
    Merdeka Coffee (Indonesian Coffee Roasters and relationship coffee specialists) - Antipodean (Coffee - Cafe - Culture)

  10. #20
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    Oct 2004
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    Portland, OR
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    192
    The whole 7 grams per shot is just an average. It is thrown out the window when you factor in that darker roasted coffees weigh much less than lighter roasted coffees. Also many roasters are now bringing their espresso roast to a lighter profile since it is more profitable, and can still taste great as espresso.

    In some cases you may be able to fit well over 7 grams into a portifilter of a very dark roasted coffee and maybe only 6 grams of a light roast.

    The shot peramiters should still be the same though and will depend on your grind, 25-30 seconds.
    Bellissimo Coffee InfoGroup
    American Barista & Coffee School
    Expert Coffee Business Consulting, On-site or Espresso Lab Professional Barista Training!
    800.655.3955

 

 
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