Sour tasting espresso

[ron45]

I've had my machine a few years. Recently had a visit from a guy who lives in france and was born in Italy. He retired as an exec. from Club Med and had drunk much espresso in his life so I took him seriously when he said the expresso was a bit sour. It was made from Trader Joe's espresso blend. The second cup from Joe's low acid french roast. Better but no cigar. We pulled several shots so the machine Expobar HE pulser or something like that was warmed up and using RO water. Any way... what are some other things that can make a double shot come out a little sour?

He also didn't pack the coffee as tight as I had learned to do it from my on line reading, which is not saying a lot but it's all I had available since I live far from a barrista I would trust. I learned to do it with a bathroom scale till I got the right brew time and grind. I forget the numbers but trying it both ways i.e. pulling the shot with barely cookie packing pressure and with my usual method didn't yield much difference in the time usually needed for the first coffee to appear. He also described the reason for the light packing as it allows more steam.... steam?? to get into the cookie than if you pack it tightly.

I'd love some input at this point. I've never seen steam come out of my machine's brew head. It always appears as 190 degree, more or less, water.

Ron

 

[Alun_evans]

There are many contributing factors to perceived espresso bitterness in the cup. For sure the grind and tamping can be a big factor- as can the condition of the burrs in your grinder. Assuming that the blend is fine, then I would look towards grind, tamping and your grinder as areas where this could impact on the coffee quality. You should perhaps run another blend to see what the results are. Everyone has their own view on whther an espresso shot is bitter or not. Perception often does not translate into reality. Brightness can also often be misinterpreted as bitterness hence why many roasters blend and roast to reduce brightness in espresso blends. Also super fresh coffee often has more brightness than coffee that has been allowed to rest after roasting. Some origins are so bright that its a good idea to wait 8+ before using them in espresso shots (Sumatran origins for instance). When I talk perception I mean often someone drinking a shot will use lose terms like bitter or sour to describe what they thing they are tasting in the demitasse. However often the tip of the tongue, which picks sweetness, not bitterness, is where a god espresso is "felt" the drinkers brain maybe doesnt corelate sweetness and coffee- therefore bitterness may be what they describe. Doesnt make sense? Roaqsting while I type so maybe not!

 

[topher]

Spot on Alun. Your friend might have lived in Italy but he is incorrect on the tamping of the coffee. You need to tamp your espresso..if not you will get a super fast shot(under extracted) Shots should run between 25 and 30 seconds. Trust your own pallet in the future

 

[ron45]

There are many contributing factors to perceived espresso bitterness in the cup.

Bitterness? The word does not appear in my post. I've been as guilty as anyone of reading posts a little too quickly. Bitter and Sour are two distinctive, separate tastes of the five which humans perceive. The other three being sweet, astringent and pungent.

The second poster didn't respond to the subject of my post and, either didn't make to the part about the brew times between dogma tamping and
tamping enough to form a cookie, ...being too close to matter. Or it's possible I didn't make clear the comparison.

Sometime when there are no coffee cops around, you can see for yourself that the brew times don't differ all that much. The grind was very fine, 5 on the Rancillio Rocky. It's where I always grind unless it gets humid which is rare in New Mexico. When Pino tamped his first shot, I was standing there, mentally crossing my arms and thinking gotcha! It was pretty surprising to note the brew time was not that different from my dogma tamp. I have gotten the grind off by one number on the Rocky and seen the cup fill too quickly and the color comming out was all wrong. I have always followed the dogma because that's all the info there was. Home schooling, even about espresso, can, lead to some less than expansive views. It was an eye opener to taste and see that were wasn't a big difference. Pino's explanation was that by tamping with less pressure the coffee gets exposed to hotter water more quickly. The swelling of the coffee particles could explain the similar brewing times.

Is there anyone who wants to talk about things that might contribute to sour tasting espresso?
Ron

 

[sidg]

Interesting that you posted this Ron. I had someone post on our Google business page the other day that they had come in and our espresso was over extracted and sour. I've been trying to figure out what he meant by that as I wasn't the one who pulled the shot or was even there when he ordered and drank the espresso. I've sense tested the grind, timing, etc. and it doesn't taste any different than what I would expect. I don't often drink espresso straight but I think I know what a good shot tastes like and that is what I'm getting.
I wonder if he just had a different expectation than what you were providing? Has anyone else said something similar?
With the guy that posted on our page I looked at his other reviews and he had several other postings at coffee shops in different places and they all indicated that everyone should go to Seattle to see what a real espresso was.
Sometimes people are just going to taste something a different way than others. I guess I'm not sure what would lead to his response as I can't honestly say that I've ever tasted sour espresso.

 

[Alun_evans]

Ok sorry, as mentioned I was roasting at the time- so indeed may be guilty of not really answering your question re sourness and steam! Sourness is pretty rarely a result of the roasting process, if the coffee is blended and roasted by someone with years of roasting experience- so I guess its best to discount this as the reason- also because you experienced this with two different blends right? So again we could go back and look at grinding and tamping...and perhaps also dose. How many grams are you packing into the double portafilter? You could try less if you are packing more than 14gms. In modern barista culture their is a theory of packing 18 even as high as 21gm into a double portafilter. In my experience sticking around 14gm-16gm maximum with a slightly FINER grind reduces any potential sourness created by packing more, grinding slightly coarser. Have a play with this variable and see what results you get.

Re steam from the group- maybe Pino was refering to preinfusion? Of course this is water injection rather than steam. We use a range of machines none have pre-infusion using steam. CCafe posted a link recently about tamping- i will look it up and re-post later after this. Its a very intere3sting article and debates exactly how imperiative it is to tamp at all!! An eye opener and an area of debate that I think would polarise most here. I would guess from playing around you can make good shots using no tamping (level the top off the portafilter) and u need to grind finer to get a longer shot. In playing around i indeed got some very sweet shots this way but...no consistencey in shot times (tamping does give you that of course)

OK hope this is a better answer for you??? Again- roasting faults seem unlikely, the machine is probably fine. I would add as a quick afterthought... using Reverse Osmosis as a water source DOES effect the taste of espresso IMHO . e have a client in Bali using our coffee who had heaps of problems with a citric, tinny taste in shots. Sfter exhustive sesarching we worked out it was their RO unit- changed to a gallon sourced supply and had no more problems. Just some things to look at. Cheers

 

[ron45]

Thanks Alun, I couldn't agree more that it's not the coffee. In further reading yesterday I came across several mentions of too low a temp having an effect on the sour thing. I turned down the temp in my machine so long ago I forget why I did it. I have a multimeter that reads temp so I'm going to check it latert and try turning it up if it's near the low end of the average. Also cleaning the grinder might be in order. We use beans for our regular coffee to so it gets used every day. But never anymore than three times and we just grind what we are using at the time. Rancid oils anywhere are not a good idea but in straight shots they may be contributing something in the sourness area.

Since you are a roaster, I came across some interesting info today in Life Extension Magazine. We get about half our vitamins from them. Turns out coffee before it's roasted, is the king of antioxidant sources in the human diet. With tons of direct correlation's between amount of cups consumed per day and a lowering incidence of many of the chief diseases of today. But roasting reduces the these polyphenols by more than half. There is a process of soaking the beans before the roast to extract the polyphenols, roasting the beans and resoaking in the sosame solution after the roast to regain the goodies roasting destroys. I don't know how that effects flavor but they are selling the beans on their site at Highest Quality Vitamins And Supplements - Life Extension

It was a surprise to see coffee getting it's rap sheet cleaned up. Of course they had an interest in selling coffee, but they are the chief nemesis of the FDA and have won some legal battles w/them so they dot all their I's when it comes to publishing the sources of all data. It's several pages of refs. to research papers. I don't think it would be that hard to find out how to extract the polyphenols. Sounds like a reason to get into roasting. I've read up on it some and am aware of the price difference for green beans. Even the hulls around the beans have a high content of the same polyphenols just a little under half if I'm remembering correctly.

Ron

 

[Alun_evans]

Thanks Ron, looks like an interesting article. I have skimmed through it, will read it properly when things quiten down here. Let us know how the quest for reducing sourness goes. I would be interested to find out what, in the end, was the cause. Be well
Alun

 

[ron45]

Thanks Ron, looks like an interesting article. I have skimmed through it, will read it properly when things quiten down here. Let us know how the quest for reducing sourness goes. I would be interested to find out what, in the end, was the cause. Be well
Alun

Ok, It's cloudy today so I'll wait for a sunny day to do the temp testing because we live off grid and the espresso machine is one of our biggest loads. I want to do the back flush while I'm at it. I only pull one or two doubles a day usually so I don't have a regular back flush schedule. But usually do it every month or so. It's only on about 15 minutes usually but we collect movies and like to watch one in the evening. So when it's cloudy we do non electric things. We went of grid in 1983 and haven' had tv since then. I can't stand the sound of tv these days or most radio. I'm curious to know how complicated the soaking drying procedure is. Most of the time in New Mexico drying things is pretty quick and I have a solar dryer that would do it pretty quickly. It wouldn't take much to build a home roaster. There are plans all over the place. Just have to decide on a heat source. Wood is tempting because I'm surrounded by trees that need the limbs trimmed up the trunk a ways to keep grass fires in the grass if possible.

Have you seen any DIY plans that look good to you. I'm unsure of the economics, but I'd tend to roast maybe a pound at a time. As the price of fossil continues to rise, it may be smarter to roast larger batches with about the same fuel cost. Lots of stuff to learn about there. I was surprised you read the article. Do you use LEF products?

Ron

 

[shadow745]

If you're only using Trader Joe's coffee then it most certainly could be the coffee among other things. Personally I have yet to find ANY coffee from a supermarket to be capable of great-exceptional espresso. Barely drinkable is more fitting as FRESH is key.

Tamping is important to a degree, but so is grind quality/consistency, dosing, distribution, water temperature/pressure, etc. Main thing with your tamp is to stay consistent and change other variables as you see fit. I prefer to grind a bit finer and tamp less, averaging 10-15 lbs max. A bit of nutation helps to seal the outer edge of the puck against the sidewall of the basket as well.

#5 on a Rocky is just a number for reference and nothing more. If grind changes aren't made often to compensate for ambient temperature, humidity, bean roast level/aging, dose used, etc. then you're not reaching the maximum potential a coffee has to offer.

 

[ron45]

If you're only using Trader Joe's coffee then it most certainly could be the coffee among other things..

Perhaps you should try some, They will stand up against any one's coffee. I think freshness is partly marketing for roasters. I was buying coffee mailed to me on the day it was roasted so it was just out of the resting period when I got it. I didn't notice much difference between it and what I had on hand from him that was a month old.

The coffees at TJs are one of the fastest moving items. I am speaking here of his fair trade coffees and particularly his Kenya Peaberry which I don't think is fair trade. [There isn't alot of fairness in muselim run contries anywhere] His espresso may be out gunned elsewhere but it's not about how fresh the coffee is. His stores are usually in something like 1% areas and they move a lot of stuff in a day. I don't work for them. I just find most of the things I want there. Many of which I can't find anywhere else. Much of their stuff is not in our budget. His cheese section is unrivaled outside of Europe. The only similarity between TJs and other markets is you have to pay to leave. But you can check out anytime you like...

As to grinder numbers, that's why they have so many isn't it?

Ron

 

[shadow745]

Freshness is a marketing strategy for roasters? I can detect differences as coffee ages by the day. Have yet to find anyting truly drinkable for espresso past the 2.5-3 week point. If you're ok with swill that's 1 month old then more power to you.

For espresso it IS about freshness plain and simple. No other brew method demands it.

Opinions vary, but if TJ coffee can stand up against any artisan roaster out there we'd all flock to this magical place for fantastic coffee at supermarket prices. Will bet a company such as TJ is mass producing roasts and aren't very capable of really fine tuning what a particular coffee has to offer like a true artisan roaster can with smaller batches.

Grinders have numbers for newbies to reference. You should simply zero the burrs, back off a bit and start shot pulling until things are dialed in for the given variables on that day.

 

[shadow745]

FWIW tell your foreign friend to stick around the states longer so he can experience what real espresso should be... not the swill commonly served with tons of sugar he is so used to.