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  1. #1
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    Organic coffee beans in the Natural

    as everyone knows, I post a lot. some are totally useless, some are redundant, many are silly and few are usefully for coffee knowledge.

    However, once in a while, I would like to bring some important subjects into our attention.

    ORGANIC COFFEE BEANS!!!

    I am sure that among more than 3000 postings (no, over 5000 postings that I already made, including 1800 that got deleted about two years ago), I have mentioned about this many times, but nowadays, people do not like to even research because it takes time (as if they all are really that busy ). Everything has to be fast and instant, and also since we have a lot of new members, I would like to bring this up again and discuss bit more, if you do not mind.

    please feel free to join in anytime.
    Last edited by ensoluna; 02-18-2018 at 05:07 AM.

  2. #2
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    I got below from www.coffee.org

    Organic Coffee Beans - In today's world that is filled with pollutants in the air and toxic chemicals being dumped into waterways that seep into the groundwater many people are opting to purchase only organically grown products. They want assurance that the foods they ingest and serve their family are not going to harm them. Organic coffee beans which create all natural coffee are no different. These are beans that are grown organically and have been certified to be organic. In order for coffee beans to be labeled as organic coffee beans they must be grown naturally without the use of chemical fertilizers or pesticides. Furthermore, the processing of the coffee beans must be done without the use of chemicals; this includes the decaffeination process which typically involves chemicals to remove the caffeine.


    it says that people worry about the foods they ingest and serve their family are not going to harm them.
    Aren't they the same people who buys junk foods, sodas, processed meats and cookies..etc ? If anyone can research and look into this, I am 1000% that the processed foods that they are eating is way worse than any none-organic coffee beans.

    whomever wrote this article probably never even been to any real coffee farms in coffee countries.
    Every country is facing with coffee diseases which decrease their production by 60 to 70% if not treated.
    so, since many years ago, Organic certification company "allows" the farmers to use "chemicals" (as example, if they were using two bottles before, Organic tell them to use one bottle and a half to get them certified as organic, or maybe one bottle). without using the chemicals to kill the coffee diseases, there won't be any organic coffees from any farmers.

    that is the truth. (of course, Organic companies will not tell the consumers about this.)

  3. #3
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    Another some definition and conditions to be organic :

    Organic coffee can only carry the organic label if it meets the U.S. requirements for being certified including the following:
    - The land that the coffee is grown on must be pesticide and herbicide free and have been free from these chemicals for at least the past three years. This is the time period that has been determined to give the soil time to recuperate from being contaminated with chemicals and thus assures consumers that the beans have not inherited chemicals from the soil.
    - Coffee plantations that grow both organically certified and uncertified coffee beans must grow them with a large buffer area between the two. This prevents the chemicals that are used on the uncertified beans from crossing over to the beans that are being grown for organic certification. Cross contamination can come from water run-off and air contamination.
    - Becoming certified organic requires more than simply avoiding the use of chemicals. These plantations must also present a plan that shows sustainable practices are in place for future growth. This includes plans for controlling pests organically and for crop rotation to assure the soil is not depleted of nutrients and aids in the prevention of erosion.

    these words and conditions seem very "nice" and "environmentally friendly". Yes, it does.
    but those "un-organic roasted coffee beans" really are harmful to our health?
    coffee beans are the seeds, protected by outer layers, pulps, parchment...etc I highly doubt any chemicals would go thru that.
    furthermore, roasters will fry the hell out them at 400F for 12 to 18 min.
    I do not think any of "chemicals" will survive that....

    so, why are they keep insisting about Organic coffee beans? certainly, it is not for our health..

  4. #4
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    by the way, I am sure that there are some members who does not know the process and why I am saying what I am saying.

    so here is the simple coffee processes.

    1. coffee berries are picked by hand or by machine. but in Guatemala 100% by hand.
    2. the flesh of the berry is removed by machine. (I am sure that most of chemicals are gone at this stage..)
    3. seeds are fermented in a water tank for several hours or sometimes days. (whatever left over, chemicals, should be gone by now)
    4. slimy layers of mucilage is removed.
    5. again, the beans are washed again and again to remove the fermentation residue.
    6. seeds are dried and sorted. (THIS IS THEN LABELED AS GREEN COFFEE BEANS)
    7. finally beans are roasted in high temp.
    8. roasted beans are grinded into fine coffee ground.
    9. again, we use hot water to make coffee out of the coffee ground.

    there you go.
    after all this, if you still think there are some chemicals that will harm your body, then, first, please stop eating the twinkies....
    Last edited by ensoluna; 02-17-2018 at 11:23 AM.

  5. #5
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    Okay. I'm right there with you as a roaster. We try to educate our customers and we only sell a few organics and most of our beans that we carry not organic. The one thing that does come up repeatedly is if the pesticides are "washed" off the final product what happens with the chemicals from these processes?

  6. #6
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    Most plant based food contains residual pesticides. In fact, most countries have laws which set maximum residue limits (MRL's) which also includes green coffee. I have yet to see any study of what remains after the roasting process - like many areas in our industry there are lot of unknowns. We do however have a significant amount of empirical data showing negative effects of pesticide ingestion. I don't see it that far fetched that people are concerned or desire plant based product to be produce pesticide free. IMO, I prefer to consume anything that is not grown with chemical pesticides. Does that mean I don't consume any chemicals .... no... I still drink a Diet Coke every once in awhile.. that's full of chemicals. I do buy most of my vegetables and proteins from farmers that are "organic" farmers but not necessarily 'Certified" organic.

    Where I think people have a legitimate concern is around the 'certification' process. It has some downfalls for sure... however for those customers concerns about pesticide consumption its the only option as a consumer. No system is perfect.. but I much prefer our scenario than having no legislation and good knows what would be in our food system.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musicphan View Post
    Most plant based food contains residual pesticides. In fact, most countries have laws which set maximum residue limits (MRL's) which also includes green coffee. I have yet to see any study of what remains after the roasting process - like many areas in our industry there are lot of unknowns. We do however have a significant amount of empirical data showing negative effects of pesticide ingestion. I don't see it that far fetched that people are concerned or desire plant based product to be produce pesticide free. IMO, I prefer to consume anything that is not grown with chemical pesticides. Does that mean I don't consume any chemicals .... no... I still drink a Diet Coke every once in awhile.. that's full of chemicals. I do buy most of my vegetables and proteins from farmers that are "organic" farmers but not necessarily 'Certified" organic.

    Where I think people have a legitimate concern is around the 'certification' process. It has some downfalls for sure... however for those customers concerns about pesticide consumption its the only option as a consumer. No system is perfect.. but I much prefer our scenario than having no legislation and good knows what would be in our food system.
    hello Mike. good points.

    there is one story I can tell everyone in this coffee forum. this is a story ONLY coffee farmers and coops or some green bean exporters knows.

    I have a customer in Taiwan, Haru Int'l. (actually, the buyer from this Taiwan company, & Doug (Mr.Peaberry) and I will be visiting Finca Paraxaj & Santa Felisa for cupping on March 12. either Doug or I will post some photos and stories at that time).
    two years ago, he asked me to find some good Organic / FairTrade beans from Huehuetenango.

    So, I contacted one of our coops in Huehue.
    the manager of this coop told me that all the Organic/FT coffees were sold out, but he said "we still haven't reached the max limit on FT/Organic certificate, so we can just get any coffee from any farms and we can certify it for you". so I asked him. "is the coffee real organic/FT?" he said "no. but it would not matter because we can still get the certificate because I still have few hundred bags left on the certification q'ty limit".

    at the end, my customer did not buy it due to pricing matter.

    but my point is that overseas buyers, importers and consumers will never know these beans are REAL ORGANIC OR FT beans or not.

    IT IS JUST PIECE OF PAPER that they are advertising.

    I know 100% for sure that a lot of beans are not really what they say it is, but I am also certain that applies to many other "so call organic products".

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjl871 View Post
    Okay. I'm right there with you as a roaster. We try to educate our customers and we only sell a few organics and most of our beans that we carry not organic. The one thing that does come up repeatedly is if the pesticides are "washed" off the final product what happens with the chemicals from these processes?
    hi Mjl871. thanks for input.

    here is another real story for you. it is not about organic beans, but rainforest certificate.

    I was in huehue coop with a lot of coffee farmers.
    One farmer, small and poor farm, was telling his story about rainforest certificate.
    there has been a new regulation in Guatemala. In order to re-new the certificate, each coffee farm must build a separate shower/bathroom for the workers who were handling any sort of chemical products or fertilizers.

    So, rainforest officials must check whether the separate shower/bathroom has built or not and then, if it has, they can re-new the certificate.

    but what the farmers were complaining was that they do not have enough fund to build a separate facility and and even if they build one, after the officials come and check, they will never come again to check whether the workers are really using the separate shower or not. there is no way to monitor and do follow up. anyway, if you think about it, unless you build some sort of CCTV or monitor to check on the workers using the shower/bathroom, there is no way, they can check on this continuously. and those farms are deep into mountains, at least five hours from Huehuetenango city.

    so, farmers were saying it was a complete waste of money to build a facility just to re-new and receive a piece of paper.
    Last edited by ensoluna; 02-17-2018 at 11:55 AM.

  9. #9
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    Well... let's call that what it is... FRAUD. And you are accurate - there is no way to be sure its 'real organic' but that's the whole purpose of the Certification process. I just hate to see a whole category of products demonized due to fraudulent coops. Only importers like yourself can help the situation, stop buying from coop's that follow these practices (I know that's probably MUCH easier said than done).

  10. #10
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    many people believes that organic / FT beans are the better beans, more healthy & even more tastier than regular beans.

    FAR from the truth!

    Organic/FT organization give about 0.20 cent above market pricing.

    Right now, as we speak, the Coffee C stock pricing is around $1.18 per pound.
    and for commercial beans, big boys would like to pay +0.30 to +0.40 above coffee C pricing. (but they have to buy few containers per order with a year in advance contract)

    that makes 1.58 per pound for commercial SHB EP beans. (which is very low due to low coffee C pricing).
    for organic/FT certified beans, they give 1.58 + 0.20 = 1.78 per pound. (below 80 point SCAA cupping). These are the beans that most of coffee shops are using. I am just guessing that 99% of beans being used in USA are these beans.

    for better beans, above 82 points to 84 points, the pricing is above $2.00 to $2.30 per pound.
    for beans that are above 85 points (called specialty beans), they are above $3.00 per pound.

    so, these Organic/FT beans are regular common commercial beans, nothing special, nothing better in taste.

    THOSE FARMS THAT PRODUCE BETTER BEANS, ABOVE 80 POINTS, WILL NOT SELL THEIR BEANS AT ORGANIC/FT because they get actually less money than selling it as better, specialty beans.

 

 
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