Hello From Canada

[newtocoffeeworld]

I wanted to say hi to everyone. The reason I joined the forum was to learn all I can about the coffee world. I am starting my own business cafe/bar model and need to learn from others. I have taken the barista/opening a cafe business course here in Ontario and thought this might be a great place to learn as well. I look forward to chatting with everyone. Have a great day.

 

[Mr.Peaberry]

Hi from California N2CW! Welcome to coffee forums. What is your timeline on opening a coffee house? There are a lot of cafe owners here so ask away, but also share your experiences as well so we can all benefit!

Cheers,

Peaberry

 

[newtocoffeeworld]

Thanka

Thanks for saying hi. Time line is opened Sept 1st. We are in middle of negotiating leasing from a new build. Very excited. But nervous how much construction will cost to do a build out. Scary to do lease then figure out construction costs. So many question I have as I dive deeper into opening. But so exciting.

 

[javanize.me]

Hi newtocoffeeworld,

I'm myself starting a business in Montreal, I'm aiming to specialise in Indonesian coffee. My family in law live in Indonesia and I have a few contact that really know well coffee business in Indonesia and know which plantation offer something unusually superior. Most of the time, these producer doesn't have high volume production and end up to sell to the cooperative or multi-national company who end up mixing the beans with lower quality.

At this point of my project, my limitation is the shipping cost and the breaking point to reach enough volume to make it worth it, without having to sell the coffee for a too high price.

Outside of high quality green bean import, there is also very reputable local roaster in Indonesia that offer product unavailable here. I spotted Fabriek Aroma Bandoeng on Java island which is very well known roasting and they age their Arabica bean 8 years and Robusta 5 years in order to get the best flavour while reducing the acidity and cafeine level. The coffee is almost not bitter and very rich in flavour, unlike the low grade coffee with a rough taste.


I wish to be able to help these local small producer to reach a better opportunity to sell their beans and at the same time share my passion for Indonesia to my fellow Canadian through coffee as a medium. If you are interested, we could help each other.

 

[ensoluna]

I'm myself starting a business in Montreal, I spotted Fabriek Aroma Bandoeng on Java island which is very well known roasting and they age their Arabica bean 8 years and Robusta 5 years in order to get the best flavour while reducing the acidity and cafeine level. The coffee is almost not bitter and very rich in flavour, unlike the low grade coffee with a rough taste.
I wish to be able to help these local small producer to reach a better opportunity to sell their beans and at the same time share my passion for Indonesia to my fellow Canadian through coffee as a medium. If you are interested, we could help each other.

Montreal is a Great Place to do anything. Actually my Second most favorite city in the world. Since 20 years ago, I always preferred "Second Cup" coffee shop over "Starbucks" and "Tim Horton" over "Dunkin Donuts" :+)

Just curious... do you know HOW they age their Arabica for 8 years and Robusta for 5 years? I will probably google it now, but perhaps you have better information. Since I work at Guatemala coffee industry, I am very keen on processing, specially unique processing.
also, are you importing Indo beans directly? and can you elaborate your idea about "Helping each other?"

thanks and good luck to you.

 

[javanize.me]

Montreal is a Great Place to do anything. Actually my Second most favorite city in the world. Since 20 years ago, I always preferred "Second Cup" coffee shop over "Starbucks" and "Tim Horton" over "Dunkin Donuts" :+)

Just curious... do you know HOW they age their Arabica for 8 years and Robusta for 5 years? I will probably google it now, but perhaps you have better information. Since I work at Guatemala coffee industry, I am very keen on processing, specially unique processing.
also, are you importing Indo beans directly? and can you elaborate your idea about "Helping each other?"

thanks and good luck to you.

Hi Ensoluna,

Montreal is a very charming city much like Boston but with that that twist of French speaking which create a nice exotic touch to the city. I've lived in many cities in the world and even if many other city are more beautiful on an architecture level, they lack this warm people feeling. I'm also a French Canadian and we quite enjoy teasing each other between english and french people. Difference of culture I guess or old rivalry still alive. hahaha Add some spice in life!

For the aging of the coffee unfortunately, I don't have much information, this is kind of a business secret i would believe. As much as the owner is very incline to allow people to visit the shop and see each step of the manufacturing of the roasted coffee, they just show the basket with the aged green bean coffee but doesn't explain any of the processes involved for the aging. They also refused to sell me aged green beans so far, selling only roasted bean. The reason told was they refuse to wholesale their product because it is a product for the Indonesian people and he makes sure that his coffee stay cheap so any Indonesian can afford it. He also limit the quantity one can order per day to avoid being out of stock.

I'm still going to try to convince the owner to sell me green bean in the 100Kg quantity by arguing that I would like to offer his product to indonesian expat like my wife who is from Bandung area. The Aroma I have access right now are only roasted bean so I get them shipped by plane to limit the lost of freshness. (This is something I would need people to guide me to know how long can we keep roasted bean fresh to market it).


I would like to be able to import green bean from Indonesia directly, but I should be seen as a newbie with a project in mind but without all the experience and expertise required. By reading this forum, doing one import experience and gathering other informations from around, I realise that the only sustainable way to import green bean from Indonesia is to go by the container. Unfortunately, I don't have an established market to sell that volume of coffee by myself.

By helping each other, I would have in mind a kind of cooperative to achieve enough volume to make it possible to import by container.

But I haven't think too much about the exact strategy, there is so much I don't know. Maybe an established importer could be interested by some hint about which plantation to import the next batch of Indonesia green bean and to buy from that importer the quantity I need. So that become a Win Win solution. I don't know if I'm right, but I believe an importer might not always have the time to visit each plantation to choose the best product at each importation.

 

[ensoluna]

thanks for taking your time to write an enjoyable thread to read.

Couple of times a year, few of the biggest coffee importers & super specialty coffee buyers make coffee origin trips to exotic places, visiting farms & coops directly to look for the most unique and awesome coffees that countries have to offer.

Croptocup.com (NY) arranges this trip. Jeff/Zoka & Mike/Klatch and other 8 more people went on a trip to Ethiopia/Kenya few month ago and they are going to visit Indonesia in October this year. And I am also thinking about going with them. Well, I am not a buyer/importer and honestly I am at the other side of business (green bean exporter in Guatemala), but I believe that this kind of trip will really give me a lot of experiences in coffee industry.
So, if you are also interested, please get in touch with croptocup.com. (I forgot the owner's name & his contact, but I can find out for you via my customers)

From my experience, big importers (like Mike at Klatch & Haru in Taiwan) do not have time to visit all the farms and choose exactly what they want because they have to visit almost every major coffee producing countries. they normally go to a huge coop cupping station and cup hundreds of them and choose different type of coffees from different regions and only stay in one country for couple of days, max 3 to 4 days. and they choose the beans according what his customers want.

However, for small yet very specialty guys like Jeff/Zoka in Seattle, they really want to visit each farm and take photos/do interviews..etc and choose their own preferred coffee (for his own taste, not for his customers' tastes) and willing to spend a week or more in one country.

Regards to importing a container directly, it would be very difficult in the beginning, so better to work with a big importer, so that you can piggy bag your order in a big buyer's container.
As example, Temple roaster in CA buys his coffee with Mike at Klatch. They work together, so when Eton of Temple Roaster buys small q'ty from his favorite farms in Guatemala, he puts his order into Mike's container and just pay him some service charges and his portion of space in that container.

For now, that might work for you.
thanks and good luck in your business.

 

[Seb]

Hi Guys,

I'm a small coffee roaster from Trois-Rivieres. I am always open to work with others so just let me know if there is anything that can be done in the future. Just send me an email: info@lecafecrema.com

Wishing both of you guys great success with your plan.

Séb

 

[Seb]

The Aroma I have access right now are only roasted bean so I get them shipped by plane to limit the lost of freshness. (This is something I would need people to guide me to know how long can we keep roasted bean fresh to market it).

That is not a good idea. Few weeks old roasted coffee is already getting old! And shipping small qty by plane will be way too expensive.

 

[javanize.me]

thanks for taking your time to write an enjoyable thread to read.

Couple of times a year, few of the biggest coffee importers & super specialty coffee buyers make coffee origin trips to exotic places, visiting farms & coops directly to look for the most unique and awesome coffees that countries have to offer.

Croptocup.com (NY) arranges this trip. Jeff/Zoka & Mike/Klatch and other 8 more people went on a trip to Ethiopia/Kenya few month ago and they are going to visit Indonesia in October this year. And I am also thinking about going with them. Well, I am not a buyer/importer and honestly I am at the other side of business (green bean exporter in Guatemala), but I believe that this kind of trip will really give me a lot of experiences in coffee industry.
So, if you are also interested, please get in touch with croptocup.com. (I forgot the owner's name & his contact, but I can find out for you via my customers)

From my experience, big importers (like Mike at Klatch & Haru in Taiwan) do not have time to visit all the farms and choose exactly what they want because they have to visit almost every major coffee producing countries. they normally go to a huge coop cupping station and cup hundreds of them and choose different type of coffees from different regions and only stay in one country for couple of days, max 3 to 4 days. and they choose the beans according what his customers want.

However, for small yet very specialty guys like Jeff/Zoka in Seattle, they really want to visit each farm and take photos/do interviews..etc and choose their own preferred coffee (for his own taste, not for his customers' tastes) and willing to spend a week or more in one country.

Regards to importing a container directly, it would be very difficult in the beginning, so better to work with a big importer, so that you can piggy bag your order in a big buyer's container.
As example, Temple roaster in CA buys his coffee with Mike at Klatch. They work together, so when Eton of Temple Roaster buys small q'ty from his favorite farms in Guatemala, he puts his order into Mike's container and just pay him some service charges and his portion of space in that container.

For now, that might work for you.
thanks and good luck in your business.

Ensolana, as with any type of business and in life, it all starts with meeting nice people, getting along, sharing our passion and working altogether to help each other. I keep a good note of your proposal to join croptocup on a trip to Indonesia. I'm not sure at this time if the timing will fit me as I'm an IT consultant with a very busy schedule when I'm on a contract. But if I can free myself at that time, I will gladly join and take the opportunity to spend a month or 2 and visit my in-law at the same time. Will be a great opportunity to show them my new baby girl who will be born in May.

I think, I would really enjoy to do like Jeff and Zoka and visit and interview the farmer directly and know their story and add it to our coffee store blog and product description. For me it is also a way to make people discover Indonesia at the same time. If I can find partners to allow me to Piggy Bag their container, it would be awesome. One of the challenge with LCL shipping was to find reliable shipping company who would not leave my cargo in the sun / rain for weeks while finding other cargo to fit in the container.

To start, I would probably need some name of reputable importer who could provide me with high quality coffee bean as I'm aiming at a luxury type coffee market. Or if I can get a good Indonesia green importer and roaster, maybe finding a partnership to get them bag the coffee and ship it to my clients directly. I think you post something about it in another thread. If you have reference for me, I would be interested.


It would be great if we get the chance to meet someday!

 

[ensoluna]

hi again,
Ben Heins is the owner's name, www.croptocup.com in NY.

for LCL shipping, you must work with shipping company that handles "coffee only", not other goods.
if you have time, give Kevin (the owner of Theta Ridge coffee in IN) a call. he is a very nice guy and he might be able to give you some coffee LCL shipping company info.

since you said "I'm aiming at a luxury type coffee market", it will be very tough for you to bring only Indonesian beans and target Luxury market (well.... Luwak is out of the questions for so many reasons....and please do not get into it anyway. so many things are wrong about Luwak coffee), Honestly, Indonesia beans are not really considered as Luxury beans....

Besides the crazy and stupidly priced beans such, luwak, JBM, Kona, the countries that produce Luxury beans are :
#1 Ethiopia
#2 Kenya
#3 Colombia
#4 Guatemala and so on.

Indonesia is kind of bottom of the list. unfortunately.....

 

[javanize.me]

hi again,
Ben Heins is the owner's name, www.croptocup.com in NY.

for LCL shipping, you must work with shipping company that handles "coffee only", not other goods.
if you have time, give Kevin (the owner of Theta Ridge coffee in IN) a call. he is a very nice guy and he might be able to give you some coffee LCL shipping company info.

since you said "I'm aiming at a luxury type coffee market", it will be very tough for you to bring only Indonesian beans and target Luxury market (well.... Luwak is out of the questions for so many reasons....and please do not get into it anyway. so many things are wrong about Luwak coffee), Honestly, Indonesia beans are not really considered as Luxury beans....

Besides the crazy and stupidly priced beans such, luwak, JBM, Kona, the countries that produce Luxury beans are :
#1 Ethiopia
#2 Kenya
#3 Colombia
#4 Guatemala and so on.

Indonesia is kind of bottom of the list. unfortunately.....

I'm surprised that Indonesia would be at the bottom of the list. I believe what make a good coffee plantation is the high at which the crop grow, the acidity level of the soil. The best coffee always come from Volcanic area which has the required altitude level and soils. Since Indonesia is in the ring of fire and count more volcano than any other country in the world, I would have tough they produce a very good product. Also, without forgetting Java which is a synonyme of coffee now a day because of the history of coffee producer.


Can you tell me more about why Indonesia rank that low?

 

[javanize.me]

I see that you seen my other post about Kopi Luwak

Another time, we could debate about our opinion about it

 

[ensoluna]

I'm surprised that Indonesia would be at the bottom of the list. I believe what make a good coffee plantation is the high at which the crop grow, the acidity level of the soil. The best coffee always come from Volcanic area which has the required altitude level and soils. Since Indonesia is in the ring of fire and count more volcano than any other country in the world, I would have tough they produce a very good product. Also, without forgetting Java which is a synonyme of coffee now a day because of the history of coffee producer.
Can you tell me more about why Indonesia rank that low?

okay, here is the explanation. Below thread was done by me on March 15, 2015.
Basically, the biggest reason (why rank so low) is due to the Wet-hulling process in Indonesia. Since it rains like crazy and has so much humidity, they can not process the beans with Natural nor regular washed process which produces more "fine" and "detailed" flavors. Also, another big problem is that Indonesian farmers want their money ASAP, so they can not really wait a month or more to get them processed regular ways (Natural, honey or washed), so they use Wet-hulled which cuts down the process by less than half of time. But again, Wet hulling process is not the ideal process to produce specialty coffees. if you research about Well hulled process in Indonesia more, you will really know about Indonesia coffee / farmers situation.


WET-HULLING PROCESS is specific to Indonesia and creates unique flavors : MORE BODY, LOWER ACIDITY, BUT COMPROMISE IN SWEETNESS AND AROMA!

I do not want you guys to get confused between Wet hulled vs. Wet process. Huge Difference.

Wet process : commonly done in Latin America, Kenya, Rwandas, Burundi
Cherry is pulped - in a tank (water or without) to ferment for hours (depends on ambiance temperatures and weather. hotter/humid, less time. colder/dryer, more time) - mucilage will be washed off and dried on patio until 11% moisture level on the beans. - 30 days resting period (this is when the actual better cupping profile develops)

Wet Hulled : COMMONLY DONE IS SUMATRA & SULAWESI REGIONS.
Cherry is pulped - ferment like wet process - dry the wet parchment until 50% moisture level !!!!!

(WHY THIS PROCESS? THEY DO NOT WANT TO WAIT LONG TIME TO DRY THEM UNTIL 11% AND SELL THEM. THEY WANT TO SELL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE TO GET THEIR MONEY. specially Indonesia weather is very hot and humid, so it will take twice or even longer than Latin countries or African countries to dry their beans up to 11% level)

- the buyer buys from farmers and dries the beans until is has 25 - 35% level. then use huge dry huller to peel the parchment (need a lot more friction and a lot more defects, of course) - dry the "naked bean without parchment" on patio and they DRY REALLY FAST. - sell the beans to overseas IN LESS THAN A MONTH. (no parchment on the beans, so they must be sold real quick, if not they will get damaged and spoiled due to weather conditions)

 

[javanize.me]

okay, here is the explanation. Below thread was done by me on March 15, 2015.
Basically, the biggest reason (why rank so low) is due to the Wet-hulling process in Indonesia. Since it rains like crazy and has so much humidity, they can not process the beans with Natural nor regular washed process which produces more "fine" and "detailed" flavors. Also, another big problem is that Indonesian farmers want their money ASAP, so they can not really wait a month or more to get them processed regular ways (Natural, honey or washed), so they use Wet-hulled which cuts down the process by less than half of time. But again, Wet hulling process is not the ideal process to produce specialty coffees. if you research about Well hulled process in Indonesia more, you will really know about Indonesia coffee / farmers situation.


WET-HULLING PROCESS is specific to Indonesia and creates unique flavors : MORE BODY, LOWER ACIDITY, BUT COMPROMISE IN SWEETNESS AND AROMA!

I do not want you guys to get confused between Wet hulled vs. Wet process. Huge Difference.

Wet process : commonly done in Latin America, Kenya, Rwandas, Burundi
Cherry is pulped - in a tank (water or without) to ferment for hours (depends on ambiance temperatures and weather. hotter/humid, less time. colder/dryer, more time) - mucilage will be washed off and dried on patio until 11% moisture level on the beans. - 30 days resting period (this is when the actual better cupping profile develops)

Wet Hulled : COMMONLY DONE IS SUMATRA & SULAWESI REGIONS.
Cherry is pulped - ferment like wet process - dry the wet parchment until 50% moisture level !!!!!

(WHY THIS PROCESS? THEY DO NOT WANT TO WAIT LONG TIME TO DRY THEM UNTIL 11% AND SELL THEM. THEY WANT TO SELL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE TO GET THEIR MONEY. specially Indonesia weather is very hot and humid, so it will take twice or even longer than Latin countries or African countries to dry their beans up to 11% level)

- the buyer buys from farmers and dries the beans until is has 25 - 35% level. then use huge dry huller to peel the parchment (need a lot more friction and a lot more defects, of course) - dry the "naked bean without parchment" on patio and they DRY REALLY FAST. - sell the beans to overseas IN LESS THAN A MONTH. (no parchment on the beans, so they must be sold real quick, if not they will get damaged and spoiled due to weather conditions)

It is definitely great informations you provided. In my mind Web hulled was a better process and gave a nice blue taint to the beans. You popped my bubble better thing that I know exactly what it is about. This is a bit disapointing for Indonesian coffee. This is something to think about now as my only way to make it livable as a business is to make it as a premium product.