European cafes versus American

[caffe biscotto]

Geez Pug, you're depressing me man.

Look on the bright side, at least we have indie shops like yours and John P's and Mocha Joe's, etc., to keep us in tune with what real coffee is all about.

 

[PinkRose]

Hello,

With the exception of one trip to Las Vegas a few years ago, I haven't ventured away from the East Coast of the US ... so I definitely can't participate in this discussion.

I must say, I was impressed by Alun Evans' very thorough and insightful response to this topic and all of the responses that followed! I enjoyed reading it along with all of the others.

One question....do people tip the baristas or waiters in other countries?

Rose

 

[jmeiss]

Hi folks,

I''m curious to learn what specific things you think European cafes that you have been to have done right or wrong, and what cafes in the USA you''ve been to have done right or wrong. It occurs to me that the only chance for improvement in the USA is for a free exchange of ideas on this matter,
if American cafe/coffeehouse owners are reading this anyway.

A few ideas:

* It is good to offer a free small biscotto with each coffee as you see in European cafes, because it is a "little thing that goes a long way".

* It is good to put mirrors on the walls as you see in European-style cafes, because it adds more sense of space; it also acknowledges the reality that humans go to cafes in part for people-watching.

* It is very bad to seriously demand $6 for a not too large sandwich, because this activates the miserly instinct of customers and creates a hidden conflict between consumers and the business. You see this at Barnes and Noble''s cafe.

Thanks.

All very good thoughts I think. The European cafe's I have been in, were all geared around the fact that the pace of life is generally slower. For instance, rarely did I see a "to go cup". In the Manufaktura in Lodz, Poland (AWESOME mall in one of the largest cities in Poland built from the remains of the largest manufacturing district in Poland) there were FOUR coffee shops in a circle - all competing - but since everyone goes and sits and enjoys the drink they ordered there's room for multiple coffee shops since everyone needs a place to sit.

 

[ElPugDiablo]

Geez Pug, you're depressing me man.

Look on the bright side, at least we have indie shops like yours and John P's and Mocha Joe's, etc., to keep us in tune with what real coffee is all about.

sorry. 95F and humid is not good for coffee shop or its operator.

 

[Alun_evans]

Good point JMeiss- the cafe is intergrated into many European cultures- meaning it is an integral part of the social fabric in countries like Italy, Holland, France and I guess (although I have never been there) Poland as well. Cafes serve great coffee- but more importantly they are THE place for starting the day, catching up with friends and neighbours- gossiping! I would agree that it would be interesting to know how many Takeaway coffees are served (as a % of coffees served) in Europe. I too would imagine the numbers wuld be quite low.

As for tipping in cafes- In Europe it is common and expected, in Asia it is not expected in most countries but appreciated. In New Zealand and Australia the customers would say "tipping? You have got to be bloody joking" :grin:

 

[Var]

Yeah, quality of clientele is a separate discussion really.

Now this is the heart of the European vs America cafe culture. In Austria where cafe culture really started, people go to cafe for the community spirit, to meet friends and at the very least read old fashion newspaper. In the US, people go there to use free internet, they glue their face to the screen for hours and hours. You can have a packed cafe and all you hear is clicking keyboard, they don't go to cafe for a good time, they go to cafe to be anti social.

In Vienna, another important aspect of the cafe culture is students sitting there studying for hours. drinking coffee and (unfortunately) smoking. As for laptops, I haven't been there in 10+ years but nowadays I would guess they are using laptops at cafes.

Similarly in France cafes are renowned for supporting intellectual types who would write important works at cafes.

In the USA, I seek out cafes where I can use my laptop, but not for Internet since I have that at home. In fact I go to cafes to get away from the Internet. :grin:

The problem with most cafes in my part of the US is that people who go there act like Ugly Americans, i.e. loud, obnoxious, unapologetic, inconsiderate.
[/list]

 

[coffee_addicted]

Are we not comparing apples to oranges when we compare American Cafe''s to European Cafe''s. Even though they are the same consept they are quite different. the European Cafe''s have been around for hundreds if not thousands of years and American''s are new to the espresso drink idea. We grew up on pretty much instant or perked coffee. I think what works in the European Cafe will not always work here in America and the reverse probably holds true. I still find people here that think a good cup of coffee consist of 2 tablespoons of grounds to a pot of water or one tea bag makes 4 cups of tea. LOL we are getting better but we are not there yet. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Sparky]

[quote:6c95b500fc=\"ElPugDiablo\"][quote:6c95b500fc=\"Alun_evans\"]I think this is an interesting debate. I would say the differences in cafe and coffee culture (the US vs. Europe) is a cultural and historical one- and it is also an ever changing evolution that has continued from obvious beginings in Europe. Generally I enjoy the cafes of Italy- the types of pastries and food they offer as well as the quality of the coffee and service. The buzz and atmosphere of these places in the morning is amazing- but of course you have to rememember the Italians drink 43 BILLION cups of coffee a year- 30% of these in the morning orrientated cafes. The passion for coffee and the undeniably central part it plays in Italians'' lives plays a huge part in the coffee industry in Italy. I agree the cafe designs are beautiful, and I actually love a lot of the design ideas that I see on my trips there.

Are the cafe designs and menu standards directly transferable to cafes operations in the USA and other countries? Not always. For instance, coffee culture has developed on very different lines in America from Italy. It was, I dare say, the norm until at least the early 1990''s for coffee in dinners and restaurants around the States to be served by the cup from carafes that had been sitting on bunn warmer plates for hours. I remember a road trip I did through (the now quite coffee sophisticated) West and Mountain States of America in 1990. The coffee was, almost universally, ahhem..apallingly bad. However (before someone berates me) I would like to add coffee evolution has happened at a speed that would make Charles Darwin turn somersaults in his grave. Coffee blends, especially those used in Espresso based drinks, are now very good- albeit it different from those European counterparts.[/quote:6c95b500fc]The irony here is that Starbucks is suppose to introduce the Italian coffee bar concept to the US. I guess they balled that up pretty much.

[quote:6c95b500fc=\"Alun_evans\"]Anyway a waffle...a verbal one rather than you can eat! But I do think the differences in coffee culture make things interesting. I do know the SCAA and SCAE standards are not at all that far apart.[/quote:6c95b500fc]It is interesting that the World Barista Championship winners are mostly from Northern European countries, add a couple from Australia and England - now that is one place known for it''s coffee. But does the Italian compete in WBC?[/quote:6c95b500fc]

Hi everyone, new to this forum.
I''m from Holland, and i am a coffee affectionate, and i design bars, restaurants and clubs.

If you ask me, the whole \"Barista\" concept, is a marketing trick to promote the new wave of coffeedrinking. Barista conveniently is an italian word, meaning bartender. But bartender in a general sense. In Italy \"barista\" doesn''t have a coffee connotation. In the 3 years i lived in Italy, and all the times i''ve been there since i have never had a cappuccino there with the image of a flower drawn in it. But i''d still take one of those anyday above the soupdish cappuccino''s they''ll serve you at costa''s or nero''s in london, or the ecclectic beverages they sell sell for coffee at starbucks. An italian could care less about latte art or fancy coffee drinks.

 

[Alun_evans]

To right Sparky. Actually it is pretty rare that they use cocoa powder on the surface of the espresso before adding steamed milk as well. The 43 billion cups pretty much is a solid number indicating that coffee is as much of a part in Italian life as brushing ones teeth in the morning! I would argue though that while barista may be somewhat glorified in other countries, barista in Italy play a very important role in not only drink preperation- as well as often being the cashier and the hub of gossip in many of the Italian Cafes I visited during my time there. Bartender indeed- but perhaps more like the British classical image of a bartender I would say

 

[Alun_evans]

BTW, heading down to Australia tomorrow for a week, so will give a report on the Independent Sydney Coffee Scene while there. Not as outwardly well known or glorified as Melbourne, but plenty of pretty well known Cafes there... many started by immigrants, sons of immigrants from Europe.

 

[paul120]

Its really a superb posting..thank you very much to post this..

 

[cafedharma]

All very good ideas especially the biscotto with your coffee or tea. A few cafes in Brighton, England still offer this.

 

[nobody]

To be honest, I don't know that there area lot of differences between a good coffee shop in the USA and one in Europe. I really think that most of the differences don't have to do with the shop itself, but rather societal and cultural differences between Europe and the USA. I'll post more tomorrow if anyone is curious. I've already typed a lot tonight.

Danny

 

[CoffeeJunky]

Danny,

I agree with you.
Different region definitely have different way of living.
Even the coffee, there are many different ways to brew and enjoy by different parts of the world.

Please do share your thoughts....

Thanks

 

[nobody]

I read back a little on the post after my initial posting, and it seems that maybe some other people agree that there are some societal differences at work between the USA and Europe, and my experience shows me that it doesn't get limited to just coffee shops/tea houses.

In Europe, in almost any city or even village center (and I speak more from experience in Austria, Germany, Switzerland, and for a little of the North of Italy), people when not working, are out and about town visiting shops, walking for pleasure, relaxing, engaging in good conversation and company with friends, coworkers, etc. and are not rushing around. They are living for the moment and are enjoying what they are doing. This does not mean that this does not happen in the USA at all. I do not live in a place like NY City or Boston, where this might be more prevalent. There is a place near me, or two, where people do this, but it is, in my opinion probably a minority of places in the USA as compared to in Europe. People in the USA may be in coffee shops, but they are rushing, on the move most of the time, hardly enjoying the time that they have there and are rushing off. This is also very true in US restaurants vs. restaurants in the above countries, where people generally stay and spend time with good friends, not leaving as quickly as we do. Waiters and waitresses are not doing the quick turnover like you see in a typical restaurant here in the states. When I was in Munich, in July or so, my wife and I went to visit our friend, going out to eat in her suburb. We got to the restaurant at something like 6:00 or 7:00, and then remained there talking, till the place closed at about 11:00 pm or so. You even see that in the dead of winter, around Christmas time, that Germans and Austrians will be out in the town, socializing on the streets while the year's Christmas Markets are in full force. You will always see that when the weather is even remotely good, that people will use outdoor cafes whenever possible, in preference to sitting inside if they have both facilities. It is my experienced opinion that this street life fuels the patronage of the typical cafes and tea houses, making things seem "better". There's always something to see when in Europe, and you might even run into one of your friends or coworkers doing much the same. If one, is, for example, in Innsbruck, Austria, having coffee in town, you might get the treat of being able to watch some of the street performers working, namely the girl with her silver dress and dog (who wears a hat) that lies down in the basket she has for him, acting like statures, or maybe the guy in silver, acting like a fountain statue, pouring water from his boot.

Danny