PID machine - no value?!

[vasyoktrubachov]

I spent several weeks researching espresso machines and grinders. I ended up with Mazzer coffee grinder and Quick Mill Silvano PID machine. I buy my coffee at Peet's and can produce the best espresso on the block now. Only Peet's themselves have comparable espresso. However, at this point of time I have significant doubts about the value of PID built in this espresso machine. If I turn my Silvano on and wait for 20 min, then I can make a beautiful shots of two single espressos or a double espresso or even back to back shots. However if I wait longer (30 min or more), which happens sometimes, there is no way I can achieve the same quality. I read in one of the forums that after a longer wait one needs to just run the hot water for 15 sec to even the temperature, which I do. But still, after a longer wait the coffee is always burned with dark brown crema.

So my question is: what is the value of PID?! And I suspect there is no value. I could do the same timing trick with my old $100 machine to pretty much the same effect. Apparently, after warming the machine for prolonged time, many other parts become hot, which makes it impossible to produce a good cup of espresso. Of course, one can turn it off for some time and wait, but then, what is the point of PID?!

 

[ensoluna]

So my question is: what is the value of PID?! And I suspect there is no value. I could do the same timing trick with my old $100 machine to pretty much the same effect. Apparently, after warming the machine for prolonged time, many other parts become hot, which makes it impossible to produce a good cup of espresso. Of course, one can turn it off for some time and wait, but then, what is the point of PID?!

hello vasyoktrubachov. welcome to the forum. as a first timer, your very first starting post/thread is as confusing and yet profound as your forum name. PID (Proportional Integral Derivative) looks easy as "PID" 3 letters, but it is as confusing as "vasyoktrubachov" vs Proportional Integral Derivative.

PID = A controller that is logic based unit which allows the roaster to input temp set points and influence logic ! (yes, I know, you are even more confused).

As i know, most of new roasters have at least a simple PID installed as standard. however, few expensive roasters come with bit complicated PID profiling controller. However, a lot of them, have no idea what PID stands for or even how to use to their benefit. roasters who don't comprehend the PID tech may use PID for a digital temp reader, so that it will shut off gas or sound alarm as beans or air temp rises to the set temp point. (BTW, that is great and make things much easy!)

However, it can do way more than that. by properly setting PID controller and controllable gas train, roasting can be more exact and repeatable practice, so that roaster will have freedom of working on other matters of quality control, such as green coffee & blending, in which all helps to create a great coffee.

Frankly speaking, it will take few hours of intensive study & practice (mathematics & fraction of percentage) to fully understand and utilize PID, as a roaster.
if you ask me, PID is a essential tool to make roasting more scientific and "easier way" to take guess work out of roasting. even helps roasters to be more experimental (basically you are a 13 years old genus kid who went to university, but not knowing the fun / sad / valuable memories of full elementary + Jr HS + HS years.)
however, what is lost here is "Creative art" in roasting. And I believe it to be a creative art, rather than scientific & mathematics percentages.

you can paint a master piece by numbers (or just copy), but to create the painting you want and value.. to create the flavor / aroma you want, you must have the intuition & tenacity & persistence of a craftsman.

so to answer your question, vasyoktrubachov, what is the point of PID?

I guess it is up to each roasters. and how they interpret "the definition of being a roaster".

 

[peterjschmidt]

Alex, your answer gives insight into PID usage on a roaster. The OP is asking about its use on an espresso machine.

vasyoktrubachov, it sounds like yours is either set wrong, or isn't functioning properly. A PID should do a great job of keeping the water at a precise temperature. Yours doesn't, and it's up to you to find out why before saying a PID is pointless.

 

[John P]

ensoluna,

V... was asking in terms of making espresso, not in terms of roasting.

First, the PID can only make the machine more stable, but if you are buying a $1000 machine, the PID is not designed specifically for that machine. While it is much better than one without, it will not be the same as a $2500 home machine or a $15000 commercial machine where the PID was designed specifically for that machine and the machine itself due to thermal mass and design, is itself much more temperature stable.

If you have the Silvano, then you purchased from Chris Coffee. They are great at helping their customers if you have any questions... just give them a call and they can assist you in better understanding what you may be missing.

 

[vasyoktrubachov]

ensoluna,

V... was asking in terms of making espresso, not in terms of roasting.

First, the PID can only make the machine more stable, but if you are buying a $1000 machine, the PID is not designed specifically for that machine. While it is much better than one without, it will not be the same as a $2500 home machine or a $15000 commercial machine where the PID was designed specifically for that machine and the machine itself due to thermal mass and design, is itself much more temperature stable.

If you have the Silvano, then you purchased from Chris Coffee. They are great at helping their customers if you have any questions... just give them a call and they can assist you in better understanding what you may be missing.

John, thank you for your response. I understand what you are saying. And agree. PID may not be completely useless, but there is no comparison to the commercial espresso machines, which at any time can produce a perfect cup of espresso. After my Silvano was on for 1 hour, there was no use of the PID. It was showing my regular 203, but the results were not good. The only one way for me to bring it back is to cool down completely, and then warm for 20 min. Everything in between (like cooling it for some time - say - 30min, and try again) does not work despite the fact that PID shows the right temperature.


I guess it is what you get for $1000. And I have no intention to go any further. As I said in my initial post, I can produce almost a perfect cup of espresso. On the other hand, if I knew this, I would have settled with something much less expensive, like Gaggia.

 

[vasyoktrubachov]

Alex, your answer gives insight into PID usage on a roaster. The OP is asking about its use on an espresso machine.

vasyoktrubachov, it sounds like yours is either set wrong, or isn't functioning properly. A PID should do a great job of keeping the water at a precise temperature. Yours doesn't, and it's up to you to find out why before saying a PID is pointless.

Thank you for your response. Out of curiosity, do you have a comparable PID machine? If yes, did you try to keep it on for a prolonged amount of time? And did you still get good results in this case?

 

[shadow745]

PIDs are useful.... for those that prefer to let the machine do all the work for them. A crutch on which to lean instead of relying on taste, texture, appearance, etc.

 

[peterjschmidt]

Thank you for your response. Out of curiosity, do you have a comparable PID machine? If yes, did you try to keep it on for a prolonged amount of time? And did you still get good results in this case?

vasyoktrubachov, I use a Vivaldi II, and can pull shot after shot, or one shot and another 4 hours later, without variation.



shadow745, you are too predictable. When I typed the above post 6 hours ago I said to myself, it's time for shadow to pop out of the woodwork. You seem to equate a machine with a PID to a super-auto; a PID'd machine still requires attention to proper grinding, shot prep, etc, dontcha know. Controlling the temp is only one variable, so what's the big deal about wanting to let the machine do that for you? The user still needs to know how to control the other variables to produce the desired taste, texture, appearance. SHEEESH.

 

[vasyoktrubachov]

vasyoktrubachov, I use a Vivaldi II, and can pull shot after shot, or one shot and another 4 hours later, without variation.

Vivaldi II is twice as expensive as Silvano. I assume for an additional $1000 one can buy more temperature stability.

Just checked the specs of Vivaldi II. I think this part is important:

Programmable Off Set Differential: This allows you to set the LED temperature setting on the front of the machine to be equal to the temperature being delivered at the group rather than the temperature inside the group boiler. Note: We set it during the bench test of each machine prior to shipping so you don't have to invest in the expensive equipment necessary to perform the tests and setting.

 

[vasyoktrubachov]

vasyoktrubachov, it sounds like yours is either set wrong, or isn't functioning properly. A PID should do a great job of keeping the water at a precise temperature. Yours doesn't, and it's up to you to find out why before saying a PID is pointless.

From what I learned so far, it looks like it is a generalization to say that PID per se would do a great job. It really depends on the machine. For example, my Silvano shows the desired temperature of 203 just 5 min after I turned it on. But if I try to make a shot of espresso anywhere before 20 min, it is lookwarm and underexposed with whitish crema and sour taste. On the other hand, as I mentioned in my initial post, if I keep it for an hour, does not matter the temperature is correct, my shot would be overexposed with dark crema and burned taste. Even if I run water for 15 sec, as some suggest, it does not help.

If anybody, who has Silvano, will tell different, and is able to produce a perfect shot of espresso even 1 hour apart with machine turned on, then I will start to suspect my PID may be not working. Other than that, I believe it is a feature, not a bug, for this specific machine.

 

[peterjschmidt]

I'll just say that the few times I needed to contact Chris' Coffee Service, the techs new my machine like the back of their hand and were very willing to take as much time as was needed to help me out. Whether or not you are the first owner of the machine, I'd bet my bottom dollar they'll be glad to talk with you if you call.

 

[shadow745]

vasyoktrubachov, I use a Vivaldi II, and can pull shot after shot, or one shot and another 4 hours later, without variation.



shadow745, you are too predictable. When I typed the above post 6 hours ago I said to myself, it's time for shadow to pop out of the woodwork. You seem to equate a machine with a PID to a super-auto; a PID'd machine still requires attention to proper grinding, shot prep, etc, dontcha know. Controlling the temp is only one variable, so what's the big deal about wanting to let the machine do that for you? The user still needs to know how to control the other variables to produce the desired taste, texture, appearance. SHEEESH.

When you rely on crutches like PIDs, weight based grinding, etc. you are creating a super auto. Skill and the art of the process become lost as automation evolves.

Give me a manual lever and hand mill over anything else. Those that choose to take the easy road lose sight of the prize.

 

[DirtyDave]

With a machine in this price range, the PID controller will not be sending a proportional voltage to the heating element.
It will be switching the element on and off (just like the pressurestat does).
So, in this instance, it is of limited value.

 

[CCafe]

How sad this argument has finally come to this. PID's have there place in just about everything that has a process that needs to be followed electronically. That being said all those people who installed a PID on their Silvia's years ago were simply trying to have a tighter control over their group temperatures rather then relying solely on a bi-metal limit stat to turn on and off the heat.

On the neat side of this I see La Marzocco decided awhile back to finally kill the group boiler thermostat on some models and replace it with a pid for more accurate control. They do have their purposes in commercial espresso equipment.

Honestly though, not that I agree with Shadow fully on this, people are relying to much on technology here. What a PID has to offer in low end home units or even some mid range business machines doesn't really count for much. Just because you have now stream lined your ability to watch the temperature like a hawk you really haven't gain anything from it. People swear up and down that having a PID on their espresso machine makes for better tasting espresso. In reality its only a marginal improvement if that.

So let those who want to pump up the horse power on their machines do so, let the traditionalist have it the old school way, and everyone else can just make the decision for themselves on what they like. Having a PID is not necessary to enjoy good espresso.

 

[peterjschmidt]

Ya know, not all espresso tastes great at 203*; they vary, right? And if I find one that is great at 203*, how nice is it to be able to repeatedly set my machine to give me that temp? Makes sense to me.