Re: Shot Times & Standards **Please Read Before Posting**

nobody

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Mar 3, 2013
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Should there be an update to the sticky for shot times? I still keep seeing different things regarding that. For example, do you start timing as soon as you lift the brew lever, or when the Espresso flow has just started? Do you maybe start timing when the lever is lifted, but count time from that point until when Espresso flow is seen to be half value?

Danny
 
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shadow745

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Aug 15, 2005
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I'll gladly leave going by time, volume or weight (ratio) to the newbies until they can figure things out. Might not be what you're asking, but nothing will ever beat instinct. I judge my extractions by color, flow rate, etc. and it never lets me down. A scale or timer has no clue when the puck has given up the good it has to offer, but no doubt some can never figure that out and assume they have to lean on pathetic guidelines!
 

nobody

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Mar 3, 2013
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I'll gladly leave going by time, volume or weight (ratio) to the newbies until they can figure things out. Might not be what you're asking, but nothing will ever beat instinct. I judge my extractions by color, flow rate, etc. and it never lets me down. A scale or timer has no clue when the puck has given up the good it has to offer, but no doubt some can never figure that out and assume they have to lean on pathetic guidelines!
I saw a Youtube video about going by how the shot comes out based on the things you mention, but now I don't know where that is now. I am not that advaned yet, but also, I feel that my Lattes taste best with shots pulled outside of the quoted times: probably around 38 seconds.

Danny
 

shadow745

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Aug 15, 2005
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I saw a Youtube video about going by how the shot comes out based on the things you mention, but now I don't know where that is now. I am not that advaned yet, but also, I feel that my Lattes taste best with shots pulled outside of the quoted times: probably around 38 seconds.

Danny
Yep it varies based on the coffee being used/level of development, grind fineness... I like most coffees seriously restricted, as in not seeing the first gloopy drop until the 20-30 second range and push most to 60+ seconds and the end result is usually less than 1 oz. Only reason I even look at the machine timer is to minimize possible damage to the vibe pump, so 70 seconds is about as far as I push the stock pump. Actually will swap that out for an upgraded Ulka that can safely be ran for 2 mins and then only needs 1 min of cool down/rest. Once I do that I plan to push some extractions to around 90 seconds just to see what's 'on the other side', bwahaha!

I honestly/gladly say that espresso is like roasting in that I consider it to be 1/3 skill, 1/3 science and 1/3 art form. Sticking strictly to numerical values will cause the enthusiast to seriously miss out.
 

nobody

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Mar 3, 2013
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Yep it varies based on the coffee being used/level of development, grind fineness... I like most coffees seriously restricted, as in not seeing the first gloopy drop until the 20-30 second range and push most to 60+ seconds and the end result is usually less than 1 oz. Only reason I even look at the machine timer is to minimize possible damage to the vibe pump, so 70 seconds is about as far as I push the stock pump. Actually will swap that out for an upgraded Ulka that can safely be ran for 2 mins and then only needs 1 min of cool down/rest. Once I do that I plan to push some extractions to around 90 seconds just to see what's 'on the other side', bwahaha!

I honestly/gladly say that espresso is like roasting in that I consider it to be 1/3 skill, 1/3 science and 1/3 art form. Sticking strictly to numerical values will cause the enthusiast to seriously miss out.
Interesting thing happened today. Keep in mind that I am a beginner, even though for many years, I had a Saeco Aroma (with pressurized portafilter). I also know that you are not an advocate of the guidelines, but I think that it is a good starting point for a beginner. Keeping in mind that I had the time of 38 seconds (maybe 36, maybe 40) where the Lattes seemed to be where I liked them, with the exception that I would want my Latte a bit less strong (less Espresso). I have been putting 17.5 grams in my 18 gram basket and pulling a 2oz. shot at the 38 seconds quoted. Why 17.5 and not 18? I have two of the same baskets and one works beautifully at 18 grams, but the other consistently makes the puck stick to the shower screen. I tried 17.5 grams and both are happy. Anyway, just for laughs, I tried the Clive Coffee shot instructions to get 30 grams output from 18 grams (but with 17.5 grams in my basket) in 25-30 seconds. I "let it fly" at my previous grinder setting and got 30 grams in 25 seconds. On top of that, the 30 grams of Espresso is less than the 2 oz. shot I was pulling before, and it gave me the less strong Latte taste I was looking for. I am now much closer to what I wanted and will tune it based on where I just got these results.

Danny
 

shadow745

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Aug 15, 2005
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Central North Carolina
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Interesting thing happened today. Keep in mind that I am a beginner, even though for many years, I had a Saeco Aroma (with pressurized portafilter). I also know that you are not an advocate of the guidelines, but I think that it is a good starting point for a beginner. Keeping in mind that I had the time of 38 seconds (maybe 36, maybe 40) where the Lattes seemed to be where I liked them, with the exception that I would want my Latte a bit less strong (less Espresso). I have been putting 17.5 grams in my 18 gram basket and pulling a 2oz. shot at the 38 seconds quoted. Why 17.5 and not 18? I have two of the same baskets and one works beautifully at 18 grams, but the other consistently makes the puck stick to the shower screen. I tried 17.5 grams and both are happy. Anyway, just for laughs, I tried the Clive Coffee shot instructions to get 30 grams output from 18 grams (but with 17.5 grams in my basket) in 25-30 seconds. I "let it fly" at my previous grinder setting and got 30 grams in 25 seconds. On top of that, the 30 grams of Espresso is less than the 2 oz. shot I was pulling before, and it gave me the less strong Latte taste I was looking for. I am now much closer to what I wanted and will tune it based on where I just got these results.

Danny
No doubt basic guidelines are fine for those starting out, but I gladly laugh at those having been at espresso for yrs and still rely on using time/volume and especially a scale on the drip tray. To each their own obviously, but I rely on my senses far more than numerical values...

On the dose weight, that actually should vary based on coffee being used (density/roast development), grind fineness, basket shape/depth, etc.
 

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