Equipment Recommendation Help

[butterbescotch]

DISCLAIMER: Posted this on someone's thread, but it seems like it's inappropriate so I am setting one for this self.
Sorry for the trouble

========================================================================================================

It's only a plan, but we're planning to set up two storey coffee shop. The first floor is a casual setting, but while the second floor is like a book cafe. Generally, we plan to accommodate around 40 tables, with each table having a two tables.

I eyed this machine: Rocket Espresso Giotto Evoluzione Espresso Machine - V2

Is my choice reasonable?
Also this machine is semi-automatic. I have heard about manual, semi-automatic, fully automatic and super automatic. Is there any particular machine type that a typical coffee shop should favor to?
Say, there should be a separate grinder available, and the like.

Also, does the taste of the coffee matters on what "type" of machine you will use, all other things equal?

Thank you for the replies!

 

[slurp]

Hi Butter,

There is a difference in taste and more important control to change taste in the machine types. Machines like Slayer and Synesso have complete control of pressure and timing while super auto is push the button and you get what you get.

We have a few WFM super auto machine and they are good so you do not have to train staff. The down side is You can not change anything easily and in fact we have to call the manufacture.

In our coffee lab at the roastery we have a Synesso Hydra and this machine is awesome BUT there is more to making an espresso.

Which type you need will depend what type of store and customers you are looking for. If your going for a Starbucks type store then the super auto is goos. If you want a high end shop where you can make the best espresso drinks then a Synesso is the right machine.

The concept you have picked is great. In Venice Beach in Los Angeles there is a shop like that call The Cows End that has been around since the Early 90s.


The Cow's End Cafe - Where the Locals Hang"Family Owned since 1989"

 

[butterbescotch]

Thank you Slurp for the information. Regarding what type of store/customer: I was actually aiming on half way. This is to say, not fully automatic for this will take out the craftsmanship (although I have little to no information regarding baristas), but I'd liked to think that to get a signature coffee of a shop, you need to get your hands dirties. I am not also aiming for a manual, because I am under the impression that to get the most of out of it, you need to have a reasonable experience.

Re: Synesso. I am still not sure what specific model are you suggestion. I have little or no knowledge about what a specific equipment can do. If you can suggest a specific machine, base on my specification, of 40 tables, It would really help a lot.

Also I know I have eyed about the Rocket, but apparently I can't find any supplier in our country. The closest I can have as a supplier is that of a Rancillo brand.
Do you have any machine in particular in Rancillo? Thank you for the input and sorry for the trouble.
===============================================
Another Question

Regarding the Machine, should we order one that has built in Coffee Grinder or should we use a separate Grinder. What do you suggest?

 

[topher]

Hey Butter...First thing I would do is attend Welcome to Coffee Fest, Where Coffee & Tea Business Happens . These shows are geared towards people that are just getting started in the coffee business. Where are you located?

 

[slurp]

Hey Butter...First thing I would do is attend Welcome to Coffee Fest, Where Coffee & Tea Business Happens . These shows are geared towards people that are just getting started in the coffee business. Where are you located?

+1

Synesso Hydra with profiling is the best espresso machine you can buy currently. They export form the USA. Now not everyone need one but if one needs the best this is it. You can call Ann @ Synesso she scan help.

 

[butterbescotch]

Thank you Topher.I am from Philippines and I doubt they'll be having a Coffee Fest here soon. :/

I searched about it Slurp. Thank for the heads up but I couldn't find more information about the matter, like specific models. I also search the youtube for reviews but couldn't find any reliable information. I searched also for the price, and its kinda pricey. It's beyond my budget. I am only planning to do 40-50 shots per hour. But thanks for the information! :]

 

[topher]

only 40 to 50 shots per hour? Just a heads up...that's a lot. Thats almost a pound of espresso an hour. I want that location!

 

[slurp]

Rancillo makes a good low - mid level machines. You will be ok with a Rancillo. You might want a three group for 50 shots per hour in order to meet the water and steam demand.

 

[butterbescotch]

Before I mislead you topher, the 40-50 cups per hour happens only at peak hour. So that figure is only for the best case scenario. :]
Good to know about that slurp.Will contact the supplier later this week. Will also buy their coffee grinder.

May I ask what do you mean by "water and steam" demand? I am not really familiar in coffee parlance. Thank you!

 

[butterbescotch]

Hello. In addition to the "water and steam" demand, (again sorry for missing out the basic informations), I'm quite confused by this person's reply from SeatleCoffeeGear:


He says that he can Epoca E machine can only produce 50 total shots/day (I am assuming that this is per group head), so this would be 100 total shots/day. I am under the impression, that one shot equals one drink, say an espresso, cappucino and the like.

However, he mentions that it can only produce 30 drinks (or shots?) an hour. So basically, with a two group head, and an eight hour operation, this would be (2x30x8) 480 shots/drink per day, on a best case scenario. Why does he only say only 50 (on 1 group) or 100 (on 2 group)?

Please do enlighten me. Thank you!

 

[slurp]

May I ask what do you mean by "water and steam" demand? I am not really familiar in coffee parlance. Thank you!

he more shots you poor per hour the more water and steam your going to need to make them. Steam of coarse is just for milk froth or making eggs if your Topher.

Espresso machines of different quality and price have different boilers and steam tanks sizes. Also some have a broiler and or steam tank for each brew group. IE two group espresso machine can have two boilers and one steam tank. Having one boiler per group allows more shots per hour and keeps shot temp constant shot to shot.

Machine prices are not just because one is prettier than another.

 

[butterbescotch]

Hello. In addition to the "water and steam" demand, (again sorry for missing out the basic informations), I'm quite confused by this person's reply from SeatleCoffeeGear:

View attachment 2303
He says that he can Epoca E machine can only produce 50 total shots/day (I am assuming that this is per group head), so this would be 100 total shots/day. I am under the impression, that one shot equals one drink, say an espresso, cappucino and the like.

However, he mentions that it can only produce 30 drinks (or shots?) an hour. So basically, with a two group head, and an eight hour operation, this would be (2x30x8) 480 shots/drink per day, on a best case scenario. Why does he only say only 50 (on 1 group) or 100 (on 2 group)?

Please do enlighten me. Thank you!

Thank you sir slurp.I'm beginning to understand it much better. Re: capacity. Can you answer the phrase I just quoted? Again sorry for the trouble. :/

 

[CoffeeJunky]

Butterbescotch,

I have been in coffee business many years and have had few different coffee machines.
There are many brands out there and they are all great machines but what you want to focus on is the following

1. size of the machine. (50 shots per hour max) Are you sure you won't go over 50 shots or is it just estimation.
2. Cost. What do you want to spend. Or afford to spend
3. Brand. Do you have service company readily available around you?
4. Electricity and water availability. Are you 220 ready? or 110 only. Do you have water line ready for hard plumbing?

If you can answer those questions, your choice will be very obvious.

Good LUck

 

[CCafe]

I'm going to put and end to this crazy talk about shots per hour.

First and foremost espresso equipment isn't rated by shots per hour. One thing and espresso machine does very well is produce espresso. Your average espresso machine can quite literally produce 1 shot every 30 seconds per group. So 1 group can pull roughly 120, 2 groups can pull roughly 240, believe it or not they say your 3 and 4 groups pull 240 as well. The reason for that is ergonomics. Its possible to put 2 people in front of a 3 group but your constantly running into each other. This isn't efficient so they rate the 3 and 4 groups the same as the 2 groups on espresso production.

Now the reason why they say some machines are only good for 50 shots should have been said "the machine is meant for this much production volume." A 1 group Epoca S with water tank is only meant for very low demand. It wasn't designed for mid or even high volume shops. The boiler is only about a gallon and to top that off its only about half full. So you don't have a lot of water to boil to make steam. So that is why they generally say a 1 group espresso machine is really meant to do about 50 drinks a day. Yes it can do more then 50 but you notice the limitations pretty quickly and understand why they stated its only a low volume machine.

The larger the boiler the more steamed milk products it can handle before you can crash it with too much demand. So lets break this down by group size and to keep it simple I'll retain the liter size of each boiler.

1 group boilers tend to be less than 5 liters. Normally you find these machines running on 110 but you do occasionally run across a 220V machine every now and then.

2 group boilers run around 11 to 15 liters. Normally you'll find them 220V elements running wattage's between 2700 - 8000. Its a big gap on those wattage ranges and it creates a lot of arguments in the community but that's an argument for a later issue.

3 group boilers run 15 - 20 liters. As to date I've never seen a 110V 3 group but I'm sure someone has tried it in the past.

By the time you hit the 3 group realm your not really worried about espresso production. The point of 3 and 4 group machines is point more towards steam production. One of the trick questions I like to ask people who are just starting out in the world of coffee is how much water should be in the boiler at any given time to give you the most steam for your buck. Should you lower the amount of water in the boiler to about half the tank size to give you more room for steam or should you fill it to the max water line where there is almost no room in the tank for steam. I would say about 80% of them answer with fill it half way full so you can have more room for steam. That's the wrong answer. When you have a boiler that has the max amount of water in it that it can hold then it means you have that much more water that is boiling and turning into steam. In other words if you you drain your tank down to half you have about half as much water turning into steam.

I'm sorry this post has become so long winded.

So you can see that boiler size it what really dictates what your machine is capable of producing per hour. A 1 group Epoca (E or S) due to boiler size is going to have a rough time producing say 50 - 20 ounce drinks an hour. However a 2 group Epoca (E or S) will have no issues banging out 50 - 20 ounce drinks every hour. A 3 group wouldn't even break a sweat at 50 - 20 ounce drinks.

Now this is based upon your average espresso machine. There are a lot of other machines out there that take different routes to address these issues. As for now I'm addressing your standard espresso machine that is using a heat exchanger for espresso on a single boiler.

 

[butterbescotch]

Thanks CoffeeJunky and CCafe! I'm going to respond respectively.

@CoffeeJunky

I have been in coffee business many years and have had few different coffee machines.
There are many brands out there and they are all great machines but what you want to focus on is the following

1. Yep sir. I'm pretty sure I can't go over 50 shots per hour. We surveyed the most popular coffee shops in our town, and they can only do around 40-50 shots per hour.
2. I have a budget of 4400-7000. Espresso machine and the related equipments/tools, say grinder and milk pots.
3. We only have Rancilio here.
4. I don't know about 220V or 110V, but I don't think I will have a problem. Water will not be connected to plumbing. The Epoca E1, to my knowledge, has a water hose. We will connect it to a water container.

@CCafe

Fist off, I really appreciate your effort on answering my queries. The reason I am wondering about the shots in the first place was that in the forum they go around talking about 50 Shots per day on Epoca E1 while our local coffee shop has an Epoca E1 and they produced around 200 cups of coffee per day. I talked to the supplier about the shots/per hour, he said that you can actually produce coffee beyond 50 shots per hour, the problem is that you get an inconsistent temperature, so the taste will sooner or later be unsatisfying.

Now, reading your posts regarding about the boiler, it all makes sense now. Apparently, I'd still go for Epoca E1, this time with an informed judgment. I know it will not get me the optimum extraction, but the thing is nobody orders straight espresso in our town. All of them are either in Smoothie, or IceBlended or any milk based drink.