here is a video of me pulling a shot on my La Pavoni PC-16 with a bottomless portafilter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59ACGsNDITk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59ACGsNDITk
VIDEO: La Pavoni PC-16 bottomless portafilter pulling shot
- Thread starter gonzo45
- Start date
CoffeeJunky
New member
- Dec 7, 2012
- 1,802
- 0
Its nice clip... but I think its little too long pulling shots. The shot pulling process should not take more then 25 seconds and i think it was more like 35 second. Either your ground the coffee too fine or your steam pressure is low...
But I do love watching bottomless portafiller pulling shots.... just so amazing to look at... Thanks
But I do love watching bottomless portafiller pulling shots.... just so amazing to look at... Thanks
Manual levers really do defy all the "rules" that many think should be applied to espresso. I'm not a believer in time or volume as taste, color and texture trump all else. Some of my absolute best espresso (home or commercial equipment) came from the lever I once owned and some of those 16 gram/1 oz. ristrettos easily took 1 minute if not more to extract.
Time and volume may apply to newbies, but any decent barista extracts by sight and taste.
CoffeeJunky
New member
- Dec 7, 2012
- 1,802
- 0
I do agree with you on some machines including the semi-manual and manual machines.
But the pressure it generates by the decent espresso machines should not let the shot pulling process to take much longer then 25 seconds.
I am not saying this is only way but I believe for commercial use(who gives care if you are doing for yourself)
1. consistency of the taste matters when you are running a store.
2. The temperature also can make the shots taste different( You should be using the shot less then 7 seconds after the pulling)
3. The longer it takes to pull shots, people experience much more bitterness in your coffee
4. Also you do not want to waste anymore time for your Barista to spend on each cup you pull....
These are few reasons why I made the statements above.
But the pressure it generates by the decent espresso machines should not let the shot pulling process to take much longer then 25 seconds.
I am not saying this is only way but I believe for commercial use(who gives care if you are doing for yourself)
1. consistency of the taste matters when you are running a store.
2. The temperature also can make the shots taste different( You should be using the shot less then 7 seconds after the pulling)
3. The longer it takes to pull shots, people experience much more bitterness in your coffee
4. Also you do not want to waste anymore time for your Barista to spend on each cup you pull....
These are few reasons why I made the statements above.
I followed the same philosophy with great results commercially as well. Ran a 2 group NS Aurelia for over 2 years. Never went by time or volume, simply controlled every extraction manually regardless of how hectic things became.
1. Consistency is key for sure. A good barista can maintain consistency by observing taste, texture and color. Again, time and volume isn't key for consistency IMHO. Some people have a feel for creating espresso and most don't. FWIW I operated a mobile setup in temperatures ranging from 18-105 degrees and humidity from 20-100%. This was year round and never lost consistency because I tweaked and sampled throughout the day to ensure each extraction was as good as it could possibly be. Of course most customers couldn't understand why I had to tweak the grind 4-12 times daily, but it had to be done to maintain consistency with such drastic ambient fluctuations. Furthermore, operating a brick/mortar location is a cake walk compared to a mobile setup. Have done both by the way...
2. Can't agree with using espresso within 7 seconds of extracting. Good espresso should be good whether it's 170 degrees in a demitasse or sipped at room temperature. It's only going to get bitter by sitting if it was pulled half-assed.
3. Longer extractions won't necessarily lead to bitterness. Pulling too short or with grind too coarse is usually as bad as too fine/long. Really depends on brew temperature, pressure and grind range.
4. Never did hire anybody to help because most wouldn't be able to handle being around me, lmao. Even though I'm quite proficient behind the machine I still made sure every espresso or other concoction was flawless regardless of time. We gave the customer a great product consistently. Too many 'baristi' go through the motions of what they're trained to do without having a clue as to what they really should be doing.
1. Consistency is key for sure. A good barista can maintain consistency by observing taste, texture and color. Again, time and volume isn't key for consistency IMHO. Some people have a feel for creating espresso and most don't. FWIW I operated a mobile setup in temperatures ranging from 18-105 degrees and humidity from 20-100%. This was year round and never lost consistency because I tweaked and sampled throughout the day to ensure each extraction was as good as it could possibly be. Of course most customers couldn't understand why I had to tweak the grind 4-12 times daily, but it had to be done to maintain consistency with such drastic ambient fluctuations. Furthermore, operating a brick/mortar location is a cake walk compared to a mobile setup. Have done both by the way...
2. Can't agree with using espresso within 7 seconds of extracting. Good espresso should be good whether it's 170 degrees in a demitasse or sipped at room temperature. It's only going to get bitter by sitting if it was pulled half-assed.
3. Longer extractions won't necessarily lead to bitterness. Pulling too short or with grind too coarse is usually as bad as too fine/long. Really depends on brew temperature, pressure and grind range.
4. Never did hire anybody to help because most wouldn't be able to handle being around me, lmao. Even though I'm quite proficient behind the machine I still made sure every espresso or other concoction was flawless regardless of time. We gave the customer a great product consistently. Too many 'baristi' go through the motions of what they're trained to do without having a clue as to what they really should be doing.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #6
the la pavoni is a leaver machine, and has no pump. it requires at least 7-10 seconds of pre infusion to draw water into the group head. the shot is then pulled, and is timed from the beginning of the pull. the leaver is out of frame in the video.
- Thread starter
- #7
also, it is the original leaver espresso machines without a pump, where we get the phrase "pulling a shot" because you need to literally pull a leaver, and apply the pressure yourself. its is a lot different than tamp, press button for pump to start, where it will deliver water at a set pressure and temperature, and you just time. this is full manual.it is nothing more than an electric boiler, and a leaver attached to a piston over the group head. just as one must learn the feel of the proper force to tamp, with a leaver machine, one must also learn the right amount of pressure in the leaver. many other "manual" machines have spring loaded leavers, which push the leaver at the right pressure itself (hardly manual in my opinion); the la pavoni has none, its all you.
Last edited:
CoffeeJunky
New member
- Dec 7, 2012
- 1,802
- 0
Sir. Shadow: I am not trying to disrespect your knowledge or your ability to pull great espresso shots. My opinion comes from few years experience of making very popular and respected coffee drink in our town. I have 9 baristas working every day. If I tell them, make great espresso shot by looking, it will be disaster. lol.. We serve now around 400 cup each day and we are getting busier.... I never had someone complain to me about my espresso base drinks...
CoffeeJunky
New member
- Dec 7, 2012
- 1,802
- 0
Gonzo: I have used La Pavoni before and yes I do know how it works. I loved the way the espresso looked. I have done few on my espresso machine and it just amazes me to look at it everytime. But I still am the believer of when you are pulling shot of espresso, you should be able to control steam, color, time and the taste....
- Thread starter
- #10
I think shadows point was more about the differences between a full manual, and the vast majority of other machines which are semi automatic. you seem to have a great deal of experience with commercial semi-auto machines. however, you wrongfully pointed out the shot time of the video, based on knowledge of a semi auto machine. the la pavoni being fully manual is a little different, and so your criticism was unwarranted. Shadow was merely pointing that out. that is not to say that your espresso skills are being called into question, but merely that you seem to have little experience with full manual machines, or were unable to identify it as such in the video. no shame in that, and no need to get defensive. for the vast majority of machines out there you are right, that would be likely be too long of a shot.
CoffeeJunky
New member
- Dec 7, 2012
- 1,802
- 0
Gonzo, I did point out as a commercial espresso barista. Who cares if you are pulling shot at home and you love way it taste. Who cares if it takes 30 seconds or 2 mins. Its your espresso you are going to be drinking. I put down my opinion purely based on commercial use. My idea is to bring out the consistency in taste, color and aroma. As a shop, if you get different flavor or different experience each time you visit the coffee house, you will surely lose many business. The shot pulling time might dictate the taste dramatically and that is the only reason I pointed out. I never said your shot looked horrible , color was bad or anything else wrong with your video. I actually loved it. When I pull shot, i don't get to see and this was great treat to watch.... 
Sir Shadow? Now that's funny as hell. IMBHO if it takes 9 baristi to crank out 400 drinks in any given day that is a testament to their lack of skill and efficiency. If they can't extract a shot based on taste, color and texture then they wouldn't work for me. Being even semi-automated just doesn't cut it for me, even in a medium-high volume commercial atmosphere.
How many of those 9 are allowed to make grind tweaks, etc. as needed? Or is it a 'set it and forget it' philosophy?
